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emileh said:
Well I support Scottish independence generally...
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They want independence from Scotland. I guess their motives for wanting to be part of Norway are cultural as well as economic. They descend from Norse settlers who colonized the Northern Isles in the 8th century and the fact that Norway has vast oil fields and is one of the richest countries on the planet.
 
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DontCostYaNuffin said:
They want independence from Scotland. I guess their motives for wanting to be part of Norway are cultural as well as economic. They descend from Norse settlers who colonized the Northern Isles in the 8th century and the fact that Norway has vast oil fields and is one of the richest countries on the planet.
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Yep, I know the reasoning. Both Orkney and Shetland are vastly different to Na h-Eileanan Siar. The way it's presented it's more about the potential for development though. And from what I've read and heard so far, most of the actual population are opposed.

I say gain independence for Scotland first and then see about rejoining the EU. Then see how things go from there.
 
emileh said:
Yep, I know the reasoning. Both Orkney and Shetland are vastly different to Na h-Eileanan Siar. The way it's presented it's more about the potential for development though. And from what I've read and heard so far, most of the actual population are opposed.

I say gain independence for Scotland first and then see about rejoining the EU. Then see how things go from there.
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Well yes, but the potential for development can only be realized by economic means and resources, which Norway has plenty of. If Orkney and Shetland join Norway, they’ll benefit from an elaborate welfare state, meaning access to education without having to pay exorbitantly high tuition fees. Education is positively correlated with income and economic development.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Na h-Eileanan Siar are vastly different from Orkney and Shetland, their history is fairly similar, both areas share a history of having been part of Norway in the Middle Ages, although the Norwegian influence has been much longer lasting in the Northern Isles. Not only because the Northern Isles remained Norwegian for a longer period than the Outer Hebrides, but also because of the relatively short distance between Norway and the Northern Isles and because of shipping and trading links between the two.

The Outer Hebrides were part of Norway from the 9th till the 13th century (until 1266, when the treaty of Perth was signed and they got incorporated into Scotland) while the Northern Isles remained Norwegian up till the late 15th century.

I’ve seen autosomal DNA results of Northern Scots from the Western Isles and and on a pca genetic cluster plot, they clustered in between various populations from the British Isles, especially Orcadians from Orkney (who happen to cluster closely to Norwegians too) and populations from Norway, especially western coastal areas of Norway. Northern Scots are a mixture of Gaels, Picts and Norwegians.
 
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I'm talking about modern populations rather than ancient. The population of Na h-Eileanan Siar consider themselves Gaels and Scottish first. Orcadians and Shetlanders consider themselves Orcadians and Shetlanders before they think about being Scottish. Gaelic as the original language of the Gaels was never really spoken in Orkney or Shetland, much the same as in Caithness. In that respect they're vastly different culturally and in outlook.

I'm off to a country dance anyway lol.
 
emileh said:
I'm talking about modern populations rather than ancient. The population of Na h-Eileanan Siar consider themselves Gaels and Scottish first. Orcadians and Shetlanders consider themselves Orcadians and Shetlanders before they think about being Scottish. Gaelic as the original language of the Gaels was never really spoken in Orkney or Shetland, much the same as in Caithness. In that respect they're vastly different culturally and in outlook.

I'm off to a country dance anyway lol.
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Modern populations of the Outer Hebrides are still similar to Norwegians as shown by population genetics (they were part of Norway for over 400 years) Culturally they might be distinct from Norway, but ethnically they aren’t and a lot of people from the Outer Hebrides are aware they descend from Norse Vikings too. a good example would be the surname MacAskill, which is an anglicization of Mac Asgaill, the latter part being derived from Ásketill, which is derived from áss, old Norse for god and ketil, old Norse for cauldron. Same word in English as well, ‘kettle’ and in Dutch ‘ketel’ which aren’t Celtic but Germanic in origin and in the case of northern Scotland, Norwegian in origin.

What I meant by Northern Scots being a mixture of Gaels, Picts and Norwegian is mainland Northern Scots, especially coastal Western Scotland and Caithness. Gaelic wasn’t really spoken in the Northern Isles as it was inhabited by Picts prior to the Norse, although it was inhabited by Gaelic hermits/monks prior to the Norse and so were the Faroe Islands. Gaels were also taken as slaves to the Northern Isles by Norse vikings and even ended up in the Faroe Islands and Iceland. For instance, DNA research has shown that Icelanders and the Faroe islanders descend from Norwegians and their Gaelic speaking slaves.

Isle of Lewis chessmen. The style of carving suggests they are Scandinavian in origin, most likely from Trondheim.
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Just... What??????

We're discussing attitudes to independence not genetics. Do you actually read posts or just lecture??

Orkney and Shetland are vastly different to Na h-Eileanan Siar when it comes to political and cultural attitudes and especially to independence.

Na h-Eileanan Siar is strongly pro-independence and a stronghold for the Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) along with parts of the inner isles and the west of Scotland. We view ourselves as Gaels and want to be independent from UK rule.

Orkney is strongly anti-independence and a stronghold for the Scottish Liberal Democrats as is Shetland. Orkney Islands Council approved a report to investigate alternative forms of governance for their territory including closer economic working with Norway. Not independence but an investigation of what alternative forms of governance would mean. That was their Council with the report written by their officers. The general population of Orkney don't want any form of independence. Shetland hasn't said they want to do this at all so it's Orkney only.

There's the difference. Not genetic but political and cultural. Genetics have no bearing on this whatsoever.
 
emileh said:
Just... What??????

We're discussing attitudes to independence not genetics. Do you actually read posts or just lecture??

Orkney and Shetland are vastly different to Na h-Eileanan Siar when it comes to political and cultural attitudes and especially to independence.

Na h-Eileanan Siar is strongly pro-independence and a stronghold for the Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) along with parts of the inner isles and the west of Scotland. We view ourselves as Gaels and want to be independent from UK rule.

Orkney is strongly anti-independence and a stronghold for the Scottish Liberal Democrats as is Shetland. Orkney Islands Council approved a report to investigate alternative forms of governance for their territory including closer economic working with Norway. Not independence but an investigation of what alternative forms of governance would mean. That was their Council with the report written by their officers. The general population of Orkney don't want any form of independence. Shetland hasn't said they want to do this at all so it's Orkney only.

There's the difference. Not genetic but political and cultural. Genetics have no bearing on this whatsoever.
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Orkney and Shetland are anti-independence with regard to the UK but not when it comes to Norway though. They’d rather be part of Norway than Scotland and you can’t really blame them. Norway has vast resources and is a fully functioning welfare state, and has one of highest Human Development rankings, plus history, genetics and culture are pretty much intertwined regarding their relationship with Norway.
This also goes for the Western Isles vis à vis Norway not just the Northern Isles. I’m not saying they want to be part of Norway though, they don’t, however they are deeply aware of their mixed Norse and Gaelic ancestry. The majority of toponyms on the Isle of Lewis for example, are Gaelicizations of Norse place names, there have been plenty of Norse findings as well, including the Lewis chess pieces and the cultural legacy of the Norse (proof that the majority of toponymic/etymological findings aren’t native) is supported by genetic research, which is proof the Norwegians actually settled and mixed with the native inhabitants (mostly replacing them with regard to the Northern Isles but not the Outer Hebrides) This doesn’t come as a surprise to most Scots from the Outer Hebrides or Caithness/Sutherland. It is an acknowledged fact that vast areas of western and northern Scotland, from Argyle all the way up to the Isle of Lewis and Sutherland and Caithness were Norwegian. It is not only acknowledged by academics, but also by the inhabitants of these areas themselves. The Norwegian influence obviously diminishes once you reach the more southern areas of the Isles.

I won’t see Orkney and Shetland gaining independence and joining Norway in my lifetime, but plenty of Orcadians support the notion of being Norwegian first and Scottish second. Scottish nationalists are bitter at the idea of losing the Northern Isles to Norway, but they have every right to be Norwegian, because they are.

https://theconversation.com/the-history-behind-orkneys-vote-to-join-norway-209352
 
Bruh this is the side of you that people dislike. Your lecturing/mansplaining is boring and annoying. You don't know nearly as much as you pretend to.

It's a simple fact that Orkney is fiercely loyal to the UK. This is indisputable and a result of close ties to British Royalty and the armed forces through two world wars. Like any population there are a small minority of exceptions but the vast majority are neither interested in or want either UK independence or Norwegian sovereignty.

The. Vast. Majority.

I have family members in Orkney and know a lot more about the people and their cultural views than you.

I've already caught you out bullshitting about your knowledge of modern Gaelic and now this.

Maybe you should reflect on your behaviour. I don't expect that to happen but maybe.

Oh and maybe it's time you started using pictures that reflect the true you at your current age rather than pretending you're still young because quite frankly it's creepy AF.


I'm done talking to you anyway. You're an arrogant ignorant boor.
 
Also don't derail this thread (another one of your annoying traits) because it's pointless. I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, will not read your posts, and will just be playing the game from now on.
 
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