Baby boxes: Compassion or Cruelty

[Icarium]

Anywho, back to the original post.

Another very American topic. As if the rest of the world still doesn't exist. Abortion or putting children up for adoption, or putting them in a babybox, is always and ever the prerogative of the mother. And if any man thinks they can meddle in that, they're stupid.

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

Anywho, back to the original post.

Another very American topic. As if the rest of the world still doesn't exist. Abortion or putting children up for adoption, or putting them in a babybox, is always and ever the prerogative of the mother. And if any man thinks they can meddle in that, they're stupid.

I agree with you, but it isn’t just an American topic. I always smirk when a fellow Dutch person lectures others on how progressive the Netherlands are, when in reality it is mostly just the Randstad, a conurbation in the western part of the country (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht and surrounding areas) that is progressive and a few urban areas to the South of the Randstad, (For example Eindhoven and Nijmegen) and even though abortion is legal in the Netherland, it is unfortunately still frowned upon amongst people living outside the big cities, especially in the Bible Belt, an area stretching all the way from the province of Zeeland in the south west, to parts of Overijssel in the north east and other areas outside of the big cities. About 45% of the Dutch population lives in the Randstad, an area corresponding to only 15% of the total land area of the Netherlands!

Most people aren’t aware that the Netherlands is one of the few countries in Europe that has a Bible Belt similar to the one in the US and is one of the few countries in Europe that have backward confessional political parties like SGP, who don’t even allow women to join their ranks and parties like ChristenUnie, a party that consists of evangelical nut jobs and Bible bashers.

As a Dutch person, I can objectively say that, although the Netherlands has a lot of progressive and liberal policies, the majority of people (except for those living in the Randstad and big cities) are unfortunately still fairly conservative if you compare them to surrounding Northern and Central European countries. This is due in part to the legacy of the reformation, in particular how it developed in the Netherlands. The Reformed Churches in the Netherlands are very conservative and dogmatic, due to their strong Calvinistic doctrines, furthermore, the Netherlands was one of the last countries in Western Europe to industrialize, compared to for example Belgium (early 1800s) Germany (Ruhr area around the 1830s) and of course Britain (1770s)

Up till fairly recently (late 19th/early 20th century), the Netherlands was still an agricultural country, and apart from the Randstad, which houses most of the Dutch people, it still fairly is. Industrial development was one of the prerequisites (as well as the scientific discoveries prior to that) for the development of a secular mindset, and although the Dutch made some very important contributions to modern science and philosophy (especially in the 17th century with people like Anthonie van Leeuwenhoek and Spinoza ), in the 19th century, they were lagging behind their neighbours in terms of industrialization. The areas that did industrialize correspond to the Randstad and areas to the south of the Randstad such as Tilburg and Eindhoven in North Brabant (for example Phillips electronics in the 1890s)

 

[Icarium]

I agree with you, but it isn’t just an American topic. I always smirk when a fellow Dutch person lectures others on how progressive the Netherlands are, when in reality it is mostly just the Randstad, a conurbation in the western part of the country (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht and surrounding areas) that is progressive and a few urban areas to the South of the Randstad, (For example Eindhoven and Nijmegen) and even though abortion is legal in the Netherland, it is unfortunately still frowned upon amongst people living outside the big cities, especially in the Bible Belt, an area stretching all the way from the province of Zeeland in the south west, to parts of Overijssel in the north east and other areas outside of the big cities. About 45% of the Dutch population lives in the Randstad, an area corresponding to only 15% of the total land area of the Netherlands!

Most people aren’t aware that the Netherlands is one of the few countries in Europe that has a Bible Belt similar to the one in the US and is one of the few countries in Europe that have backward confessional political parties like SGP, who don’t even allow women to join their ranks and parties like ChristenUnie, a party that consists of evangelical nut jobs and Bible bashers.

As a Dutch person, I can objectively say that, although the Netherlands has a lot of progressive and liberal policies, the majority of people (except for those living in the Randstad and big cities) are unfortunately still fairly conservative if you compare them to surrounding Northern and Central European countries. This is due in part to the legacy of the reformation, in particular how it developed in the Netherlands. The Reformed Churches in the Netherlands are very conservative and dogmatic, due to their strong Calvinistic doctrines, furthermore, the Netherlands was one of the last countries in Western Europe to industrialize, compared to for example Belgium (early 1800s) Germany (Ruhr area around the 1830s) and of course Britain (1770s)

Up till fairly recently (late 19th/early 20th century), the Netherlands was still an agricultural country, and apart from the Randstad, which houses most of the Dutch people, it still fairly is. Industrial development was one of the prerequisites (as well as the scientific discoveries prior to that) for the development of a secular mindset, and although the Dutch made some very important contributions to modern science and philosophy (especially in the 17th century with people like Anthonie van Leeuwenhoek and Spinoza ), in the 19th century, they were lagging behind their neighbours in terms of industrialization. The areas that did industrialize correspond to the Randstad and areas to the south of the Randstad such as Tilburg and Eindhoven in North Brabant (for example Phillips electronics in the 1890s)

I just couldn't let this pass without making a few remarks.

Where there is a lot of truth in your words, as a fellow Netherlander, I disagree to a few things too.

First and foremost, don't make the Bible Belters (and the anti-vaxxers and the complot theorists) not bigger than they are. As you are well aware, the Dutch parliamentary system is the most democratic in the world. (For anyone not Dutch, in Dutch parliament there are 150 seats, and at election day an x amount of votes is being casted. To get one seat in parliament you need to get (x divided by 150 = y) amount of votes)

The SGP & ChristenUnie combined gained 566,524 votes out of a total of over 10 million legal votes (at the general elections in 2021). And with that amount of votes they gained 8 seats out of the 150 available. The fact the ChristenUnie (Christian Union) was part of the rightwing government doesn't mean they have much of a say. Together they can never make a difference, and the laws of our country mean that abortion, as well as euthanesia as well as a few other things that other countries frown upon are very legal.

I had a little look at our demography. The population of the Netherlands:
Half of us state (according to wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevolking_van_Nederland) that they have no religion. And nearly a quarter say they're Roman Catholic. And only 12.2% state they are protestant or reformed. Which is pretty much in line with the numbers in the general elections of 2021.

But those nearly 25% Catholics, that number is interesting. 23.7% to be exact. Roughly the population of the Southern half of the Netherlands. Or, in other words, Noord-Brabant and Limburg, which were part of Spain. Burgundy like (Bourgondiërs).
But it means that the Netherlands is a made up country. And in my opinion, the borders were wrongly set in 1830, when Belgium separated itself from the Netherlands.

The old Provinces of Holland, Zeeland and all the provinces north of the rivers should be one country, Noord-Brabant, Limburg and Flanders another country, and the French part of what is now Belgium should be another country, with arguably Brussels as a city-state.

Again, it all aside, because I'm coming to the point you tried to make. I had a good search for the opinion on abortion in the Netherlands. And while there have been protests from the 1970s (as per this: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortus_in_Nederland) No real numbers are mentioned. And thus it's small amounts, not even the Bible Belters, but more the Anti vaxxers and complot theorists.

I sincerely and wholeheartedly disagree that the majority of the Dutch is still fairly conservative (and thus suggesting they would be opposing to abortion, euthanesia etcetera). Even more, the very right wing VVD (Liberal Party of the Netherlands) has been a front runner to make those things into law. And even the extreme right Geert Wilders and his PVV are supportive of abortion and euthanesia.

----

A few other things, most of the exporting agriculture (flowers and greenhouses) are located in the Randstad. The Westland is in the heart of the Randstad and the bulbfields of the Keukenhof are located about next to The Hague (the biggest village in the Netherlands).
And currently the biggest industrial area, making the most money annually is Brainport Regio Eindhoven. with ASML as frontrunner.
The Holland Golden Age is disputable to say the least, but what do I know, where I live we were part of Spain in those times.

And lastly, my apologies to all non-Dutch speakers for posting two Dutch wiki links.

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

I just couldn't let this pass without making a few remarks.

Where there is a lot of truth in your words, as a fellow Netherlander, I disagree to a few things too.

First and foremost, don't make the Bible Belters (and the anti-vaxxers and the complot theorists) not bigger than they are. As you are well aware, the Dutch parliamentary system is the most democratic in the world. (For anyone not Dutch, in Dutch parliament there are 150 seats, and at election day an x amount of votes is being casted. To get one seat in parliament you need to get (x divided by 150 = y) amount of votes)

The SGP & ChristenUnie combined gained 566,524 votes out of a total of over 10 million legal votes (at the general elections in 2021). And with that amount of votes they gained 8 seats out of the 150 available. The fact the ChristenUnie (Christian Union) was part of the rightwing government doesn't mean they have much of a say. Together they can never make a difference, and the laws of our country mean that abortion, as well as euthanesia as well as a few other things that other countries frown upon are very legal.

I had a little look at our demography. The population of the Netherlands:
Half of us state (according to wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevolking_van_Nederland) that they have no religion. And nearly a quarter say they're Roman Catholic. And only 12.2% state they are protestant or reformed. Which is pretty much in line with the numbers in the general elections of 2021.

But those nearly 25% Catholics, that number is interesting. 23.7% to be exact. Roughly the population of the Southern half of the Netherlands. Or, in other words, Noord-Brabant and Limburg, which were part of Spain. Burgundy like (Bourgondiërs).
But it means that the Netherlands is a made up country. And in my opinion, the borders were wrongly set in 1830, when Belgium separated itself from the Netherlands.

The old Provinces of Holland, Zeeland and all the provinces north of the rivers should be one country, Noord-Brabant, Limburg and Flanders another country, and the French part of what is now Belgium should be another country, with arguably Brussels as a city-state.

Again, it all aside, because I'm coming to the point you tried to make. I had a good search for the opinion on abortion in the Netherlands. And while there have been protests from the 1970s (as per this: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortus_in_Nederland) No real numbers are mentioned. And thus it's small amounts, not even the Bible Belters, but more the Anti vaxxers and complot theorists.

I sincerely and wholeheartedly disagree that the majority of the Dutch is still fairly conservative (and thus suggesting they would be opposing to abortion, euthanesia etcetera). Even more, the very right wing VVD (Liberal Party of the Netherlands) has been a front runner to make those things into law. And even the extreme right Geert Wilders and his PVV are supportive of abortion and euthanesia.

----

A few other things, most of the exporting agriculture (flowers and greenhouses) are located in the Randstad. The Westland is in the heart of the Randstad and the bulbfields of the Keukenhof are located about next to The Hague (the biggest village in the Netherlands).
And currently the biggest industrial area, making the most money annually is Brainport Regio Eindhoven. with ASML as frontrunner.
The Holland Golden Age is disputable to say the least, but what do I know, where I live we were part of Spain in those times.

And lastly, my apologies to all non-Dutch speakers for posting two Dutch wiki links.

This doesn’t really address the point I was trying to make. My point is that there is a very big cultural divide between the Randstad in the west and the areas outside the Randstad and that there is fairly large group of people living in the Netherlands who are very conservative even on par with conservatives the US, which is something we don’t see in other European countries such as Germany, Belgium, France, the UK and the Scandinavian countries, even though the progressive vote generally tends to outweigh the conservative vote. I can’t think of any other European country that has religious political parties such as SGP or ChristenUnie, I mean, the former don’t even allow women to join their party, because they believe women aren’t equal and entitled to the same rights as men. Lol, get real man, this is the 21st century. Plus you’ve got a large religious political party called CDA, which I didn’t mention in my previous comment, which is a slightly right-of-centre broad Christian political party containing both slightly “progressive” moderates as well as members of right-wing ultra orthodox conservative denominations such as the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (Gereformeerde Kerk in Dutch) so you can add those up to the figures you mentioned too.

As I previously mentioned, the Bible Belt stretches all the way from Zeeland in the south west, to the province Overijssel in the north east, that’s a big area, plus you’ve got a majority agricultural area, since the Randstad corresponds to only 15% of the total area of the Netherlands meaning that vast areas outside of the Randstad such as the provinces of Friesland, Groningen, Drenthe, Overijssel, Gelderland and Zeeland are agricultural, meaning they’re very conservative. You’ve got farmers living here supporting radical right-wing organizations such as the ‘Farmers Defence Force’, a group of people who openly reject science and the idea of climate change.

You’ve got Reformed Church communities living in the Betuwe and Veluwe region of Gelderland and in places such as Staphorst in Overijssel, Urk in Flevoland or the Alblasserwaard region of the province of Zuid-Holland, where men and women attend church services separately from each other and don’t vaccinate their children against polio or scarlet fever because they believe in divine providence.

As I stated earlier, 45% of the Dutch population live in an area corresponding to only 15% of the total area of the Netherlands, which is the reason the Netherlands always has a slight progressive majority, but outside of the Randstad there are more conservatives than progressives because the Netherlands is still very much an agricultural country. I mean, these aren’t just any conservatives, some of these people don’t even have insurance because they believe in divine providence. This is very particular to the Netherlands, which you won’t find in Germany or France or any other European country for that matter.

 

[Inkandtatts]

Ngl, I’ve not read through all these posts but it’s nice to see an actual debate going on here

 

[Icarium]

This doesn’t really address the point I was trying to make. My point is that there is a very big cultural divide between the Randstad in the west and the areas outside the Randstad and that there is fairly large group of people living in the Netherlands who are very conservative even on par with conservatives the US, which is something we don’t see in other European countries such as Germany, Belgium, France, the UK and the Scandinavian countries, even though the progressive vote generally tends to outweigh the conservative vote. I can’t think of any other European country that has religious political parties such as SGP or ChristenUnie, I mean, the former don’t even allow women to join their party, because they believe women aren’t equal and entitled to the same rights as men. Lol, get real man, this is the 21st century. Plus you’ve got a large religious political party called CDA, which I didn’t mention in my previous comment, which is a slightly right-of-centre broad Christian political party containing both slightly “progressive” moderates as well as members of right-wing ultra orthodox conservative denominations such as the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (Gereformeerde Kerk in Dutch) so you can add those up to the figures you mentioned too.

As I previously mentioned, the Bible Belt stretches all the way from Zeeland in the south west, to the province Overijssel in the north east, that’s a big area, plus you’ve got a majority agricultural area, since the Randstad corresponds to only 15% of the total area of the Netherlands meaning that vast areas outside of the Randstad such as the provinces of Friesland, Groningen, Drenthe, Overijssel, Gelderland and Zeeland are agricultural, meaning they’re very conservative. You’ve got farmers living here supporting radical right-wing organizations such as the ‘Farmers Defence Force’, a group of people who openly reject science and the idea of climate change.

You’ve got Reformed Church communities living in the Betuwe and Veluwe region of Gelderland and in places such as Staphorst in Overijssel, Urk in Flevoland or the Alblasserwaard region of the province of Zuid-Holland, where men and women attend church services separately from each other and don’t vaccinate their children against polio or scarlet fever because they believe in divine providence.

As I stated earlier, 45% of the Dutch population live in an area corresponding to only 15% of the total area of the Netherlands, which is the reason the Netherlands always has a slight progressive majority, but outside of the Randstad there are more conservatives than progressives because the Netherlands is still very much an agricultural country. I mean, these aren’t just any conservatives, some of these people don’t even have insurance because they believe in divine providence. This is very particular to the Netherlands, which you won’t find in Germany or France or any other European country for that matter.

For now, because it's just after 9 on Saturday, I would love to know where you are from.

Because it feels you've not read my post, and you're just repeating what you wrote before.I am thinking you're a northerner, i.e from above the sewers. I stated and undermined my post with facts, but you disregard them as if they weren't posted.

So could it be you're a Bible Belter? Or an Anti-vaxxer?

 

[Deleted member 263960]

Ok I have to admit before I found my glasses I thought this was about "baby boxers" which I why I looked.

My TLDR is this : Id rather a drop box than a forever box.

 

[Kd.]

I am definitely more pro-choice than anything.
I like that there are these baby boxes for mothers who don’t want to raise a child. I mean look at that 19 year old Alexis Trevizo she decided to not do the right thing and her baby passed away in a trash in the hospital.

These baby boxes prevent some of these “mothers” from doing the wrong thing.

Society says it’s not ok to dump a grown child, but it is always ok to admit you can’t handle or take care of a child and put it in foster care or have a family member take care of it until you are able. Some families go through rough times(drugs,homelessness,losing job, etc.)

The point is… it is ok to ask for help! The baby boxes are for people who need that help. The women that use these really are brave. It is hard asking for help.

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

For now, because it's just after 9 on Saturday, I would love to know where you are from.

Because it feels you've not read my post, and you're just repeating what you wrote before.I am thinking you're a northerner, i.e from above the sewers. I stated and undermined my post with facts, but you disregard them as if they weren't posted.

So could it be you're a Bible Belter? Or an Anti-vaxxer?

It seems like my comments got lost in translation, not on my part however, but on yours, that’s not an ad hominem attack however, but it seems like you didn’t get a word I said. I mean, I don’t blame you though, English obviously isn’t your first language, but I’ve just posted two entire paragraphs ridiculing the Netherlands’ religious conservatism, provincialism and closed mindedness and you accuse me of being a Bible basher and an anti-vaxxer when I just commented on the fact that I find it ridiculous that a large group of people in the Netherlands don’t get vaccinated because of their religious beliefs leading to outbreaks of scarlet fever and measles in those particular areas. Also the fact that you’ve got political parties in the Netherlands who don’t allow women to join. It seems like you’re the Bible basher and anti-vaxxer. I can tell by your lack of a critical mind and attitude which manifests itself in your jingoistic and nationalist rhetoric claiming that the Netherlands is a progressive utopia, when in many cases it is not. You seem to lack the historical insight to understand why this is. I mean sure, the Netherlands is fairly progressive on a number of important issues and gets a lot done in terms of legislation exactly because the most progressive areas are located in the most populated and industrialized area of the Netherlands, but what people aren’t told and only witness once they step outside of the Randstad, especially tourists or people who visit the Netherlands on business trips, let’s say in the middle of Friesland, Drenthe, Overijssel or any other province outside of the Randstad, is that it isn’t as progressive as they were lead to believe and the Dutch hardly ever mention these facts because it damages their reputation and for good reason. And it is a bit disingenuous of you to state that these are typical Northern practices when parts of the Southern countryside aren’t really progressive either. I mean, I just typed a whole paragraph explaining the Netherlands’ relative provincialism and agricultural character outside the Randstad due to the fact that the Netherlands was one of the last countries in Western Europe to industrialize. At least I acknowledge these facts and am critical of the fact that the Netherlands also has a lot of shortcomings and at least I try to to do something about it by voting on progressive political parties such as PvdA or GroenLinks, but you clearly vote for conservative parties like Forum voor Democatie.

A good example would be the Netherlands’ colonial past. Perhaps you should delve into the Netherlands’ (post) colonial history and the way they mistreated their “subjects”. For instance how they mistreated the Moluccan people in the Netherlands after Indonesias independence where they tricked the Moluccan people into promising them an independent state which they never got and made them live in former concentration camps. How the Dutch committed genocides in Indonesia such as the South Sulawesi campaign of 1946-1947. How the Netherlands was one of the last countries in the world to abolish slavery, which they did in 1863, when the British and French had already abolished it decades earlier.

So who am I you ask? Born and raised in the Netherlands, but of mixed ancestry. Dutch on my mother’s side and British, Silesian German/Polish and Austrian on my father’s side. a citizen of the world. Secular and a committed progressive. The Eric Hobsbawm of chat-avenue. Dedicated follower of Chaotica’s posts on chat-avenue….

 

[Bread.]

I am definitely more pro-choice than anything.
I like that there are these baby boxes for mothers who don’t want to raise a child. I mean look at that 19 year old Alexis Trevizo she decided to not do the right thing and her baby passed away in a trash in the hospital.

These baby boxes prevent some of these “mothers” from doing the wrong thing.

Society says it’s not ok to dump a grown child, but it is always ok to admit you can’t handle or take care of a child and put it in foster care or have a family member take care of it until you are able. Some families go through rough times(drugs,homelessness,losing job, etc.)

The point is… it is ok to ask for help! The baby boxes are for people who need that help. The women that use these really are brave. It is hard asking for help.

But the difference is baby box mothers don't ask for help. They simply dump the baby anonymously. Nothing to fill out. No trace of that babys mother. Clean getaway. Almost like getting away with a crime without being caught.

When mother's seek help by putting up their child for adoption, they have to fill out extensive paperwork signing away their rights.

If they really wanted to help the child by giving it a better future(debatable) then why wouldn't they want the child to know who their mother is? Are they really helping the child by not helping disclosing any sort of genetic medical conditions? Denying them of any inheritance rights? Why do it anonymously? Doing it anonymously means you don't want nothing to do with that child.

The alternative to being killed in a hospital or dumped in a trashcan as soon as you are born is having safe sex/abstinence. Don't want a baby then keep your fish box closed.

 

[Bread.]

Let's see who(pro debaters only)can argue me this:

The basis for those arguing anonymously dumping babies in boxes is the better option as opposed to death, is that the mother is doing "what's best for the child". The mother is giving them a chance at a better future. She is doing it with good moral intentions.

If I were to apply... the same exact basis to a full grown child it suddenly becomes a crime.

Example: A mother doesnt want to or can't care for a 6 year old child. She "anonymously" dumps him at a local community church because she believes the church will raise him, or care for him in a way she couldn't.

Guess what. That's a crime. So why isn't the other?

 

[Kim]

Are baby boxes just an excuse to have sex without precautions and an easy way to not deal with the consequences?
Pro Choice BTW .

 

[FairyxStar_oOo]

Being GAY is a choice of lifestyle HE LOVES COC I LOVE COC what’s the difference??? There’s no difference really WE BOTH LOVE coc !!!!🧚‍♀️🫧✨🌸🌸🫧🌸✨🌙🌙👸🏻🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶👸🏻🌙🌙

 

[babydolla]

Are baby boxes just an excuse to have sex without precautions and an easy way to not deal with the consequences?
Pro Choice BTW .

would u rather abortions be the route irresponsible ppl take when they get pregnant, or babyboxes???

frankly, if ppl are going to be irresponsible, which they always will be... then at least w/ a babybox the baby has a chance at life still, where as the alternative is certain death before even exiting the womb...

everything is an excuse to be irresponsible now tbh...

i dont rly has a stake in this argument, i was rly just replying to fairy's ridiculous comment but i didnt want to totally derail the thread... so unless vaginas can get other vaginas pregnant then i dont rly think i has to worry about it... IDK, biology isnt rly biology anymore so who knows 🤪🤪

pro-whatever btw

Being GAY is a choice of lifestyle 🧚‍♀️🫧✨🌸🌸🫧🌸✨🌙🌙👸🏻🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶👸🏻🌙🌙

rly? fascinating... bc i'm a lesbian, & in today's environment if i had a choice i would choose to be straight bc i dont want to be associated w/ lgbtqia+xyz123 aka the rainbow mafia; anymore, which i cant choose to be bc men sexually repulse me... so it's definitelys not a choice...

i left all ur emojis bc theyre as ridiculous as ur opening sentence is babe 🤌🏻

 

[FairyxStar_oOo]

would u rather abortions be the route irresponsible ppl take when they get pregnant, or babyboxes???

frankly, if ppl are going to be irresponsible, which they always will be... then at least w/ a babybox the baby has a chance at life still, where as the alternative is certain death before even exiting the womb...

everything is an excuse to be irresponsible now tbh...

i dont rly has a stake in this argument, i was rly just replying to fairy's ridiculous comment but i didnt want to totally derail the thread... so unless vaginas can get other vaginas pregnant then i dont rly think i has to worry about it... IDK, biology isnt rly biology anymore so who knows 🤪🤪

pro-whatever btw



rly? fascinating... bc i'm a lesbian, & in today's environment if i had a choice i would choose to be straight bc i dont want to be associated w/ lgbtqia+xyz123 aka the rainbow mafia; anymore, which i cant choose to be bc men sexually repulse me... so it's definitelys not a choice...

i left all ur emojis bc theyre as ridiculous as ur opening sentence is babe 🤌🏻

For a lesbian that’s pretty fkibg harsh to SAY ofc you have a choice become a nun 🫶🌙🫧🫧🫧🌸🌸🧚‍♀️🧚‍♀️

 

[Bread.]

would u rather abortions be the route irresponsible ppl take when they get pregnant, or babyboxes???

frankly, if ppl are going to be irresponsible, which they always will be... then at least w/ a babybox the baby has a chance at life still, where as the alternative is certain death before even exiting the womb...

everything is an excuse to be irresponsible now tbh...

i dont rly has a stake in this argument, i was rly just replying to fairy's ridiculous comment but i didnt want to totally derail the thread... so unless vaginas can get other vaginas pregnant then i dont rly think i has to worry about it... IDK, biology isnt rly biology anymore so who knows 🤪🤪

pro-whatever btw



rly? fascinating... bc i'm a lesbian, & in today's environment if i had a choice i would choose to be straight bc i dont want to be associated w/ lgbtqia+xyz123 aka the rainbow mafia; anymore, which i cant choose to be bc men sexually repulse me... so it's definitelys not a choice...

i left all ur emojis bc theyre as ridiculous as ur opening sentence is babe 🤌🏻

Abortions are the irresponsible way if you're under 20 weeks. If you're over 20, then you can baby box them.

Either way women have a choice. A choice to be irresponsible.

 

[Icarium]

It seems like my comments got lost in translation, not on my part however, but on yours, that’s not an ad hominem attack however, but it seems like you didn’t get a word I said. I mean, I don’t blame you though, English obviously isn’t your first language, but I’ve just posted two entire paragraphs ridiculing the Netherlands’ religious conservatism, provincialism and closed mindedness and you accuse me of being a Bible basher and an anti-vaxxer when I just commented on the fact that I find it ridiculous that a large group of people in the Netherlands don’t get vaccinated because of their religious beliefs leading to outbreaks of scarlet fever and measles in those particular areas. Also the fact that you’ve got political parties in the Netherlands who don’t allow women to join. It seems like you’re the Bible basher and anti-vaxxer. I can tell by your lack of a critical mind and attitude which manifests itself in your jingoistic and nationalist rhetoric claiming that the Netherlands is a progressive utopia, when in many cases it is not. You seem to lack the historical insight to understand why this is. I mean sure, the Netherlands is fairly progressive on a number of important issues and gets a lot done in terms of legislation exactly because the most progressive areas are located in the most populated and industrialized area of the Netherlands, but what people aren’t told and only witness once they step outside of the Randstad, especially tourists or people who visit the Netherlands on business trips, let’s say in the middle of Friesland, Drenthe, Overijssel or any other province outside of the Randstad, is that it isn’t as progressive as they were lead to believe and the Dutch hardly ever mention these facts because it damages their reputation and for good reason. And it is a bit disingenuous of you to state that these are typical Northern practices when parts of the Southern countryside aren’t really progressive either. I mean, I just typed a whole paragraph explaining the Netherlands’ relative provincialism and agricultural character outside the Randstad due to the fact that the Netherlands was one of the last countries in Western Europe to industrialize. At least I acknowledge these facts and am critical of the fact that the Netherlands also has a lot of shortcomings and at least I try to to do something about it by voting on progressive political parties such as PvdA or GroenLinks, but you clearly vote for conservative parties like Forum voor Democatie.

A good example would be the Netherlands’ colonial past. Perhaps you should delve into the Netherlands’ (post) colonial history and the way they mistreated their “subjects”. For instance how they mistreated the Moluccan people in the Netherlands after Indonesias independence where they tricked the Moluccan people into promising them an independent state which they never got and made them live in former concentration camps. How the Dutch committed genocides in Indonesia such as the South Sulawesi campaign of 1946-1947. How the Netherlands was one of the last countries in the world to abolish slavery, which they did in 1863, when the British and French had already abolished it decades earlier.

So who am I you ask? Born and raised in the Netherlands, but of mixed ancestry. Dutch on my mother’s side and British, Silesian German/Polish and Austrian on my father’s side. a citizen of the world. Secular and a committed progressive. The Eric Hobsbawm of chat-avenue. Dedicated follower of Chaotica’s posts on chat-avenue….

I've been away a few days with a summercold, so my apologies for not replying sooner.

I asked a question, to which you answered, thank you for that. Unfortunately you made a very wrong assumption about me. I come from a red (southern) nest, and have voted most of my life for PvdA, and more recently for Volt. The only pan-European political party.

Pieter Omtzigt wouldn't automatically be my next choice, but his 40 page document holds a lot of good things. So it will be center to center left (European Left that is).

 

[Inkandtatts]

Something pretty major is being missed here.

If there’s an argument about irresponsibility then that should go back to conception. Women continually get a hard time for unwanted pregnancies but it’s not rocket science for a man to slip on a condom.

On punishment, if there’s an argument for a woman being punished for using a baby box or even abortion then that punishment should extend to the father as well

In fact I might even go further than that. A person can be criminally prosecuted for the intentional/reckless transmission of an STD.

Why not prosecute the man, in the case of unwanted pregnancies, for the intentional/reckless transmission of his baby-potent sperm?

Are baby boxes just an excuse to have sex without precautions and an easy way to not deal with the consequences?
Pro Choice BTW .

I’m not completely convinced of that. From what I’ve seen of the things women go through when pregnant, I can’t imagine anyone being that much of a hoe to go through 9 months of that for an unprotected bunk up. They’d be more the morning after pill type, I think - or the ones that keep the babies to live off the State

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

I've been away a few days with a summercold, so my apologies for not replying sooner.

I asked a question, to which you answered, thank you for that. Unfortunately you made a very wrong assumption about me. I come from a red (southern) nest, and have voted most of my life for PvdA, and more recently for Volt. The only pan-European political party.

Pieter Omtzigt wouldn't automatically be my next choice, but his 40 page document holds a lot of good things. So it will be center to center left (European Left that is).

Yeah, I was just messing with you, since you made an equally weird assumption about me. I’m very progressive and an Atheist. I usually vote for one of the left-wing parties such as PvdA and used to vote SP in the early 2000s, although I probably won’t be voting for SP anymore, since they’re not a Pro-European party and I strongly believe in European cooperation. I used to be a bit of a Marxist but i’d consider myself to be Social Democrat now. Personally, I’d like to see a coalition consisting of PvdA/GroenLinks and Volt.

 

[Bread.]

Something pretty major is being missed here.

If there’s an argument about irresponsibility then that should go back to conception. Women continually get a hard time for unwanted pregnancies but it’s not rocket science for a man to slip on a condom.

On punishment, if there’s an argument for a woman being punished for using a baby box or even abortion then that punishment should extend to the father as well

À. Women don't get pregnant by looking at a **** with or without a condom. They get pregnant from sexual intercourse. Women control access to sex through consent.

B. There is no punishment for abortion (murder) under 20 weeks nor is there punishment for using a baby box. Hence why these irresponsible women can just dump babies.

C. The emphasis on this debate is that mother's can abandon newborns but not grown children. Abandoning children anonymously is illegal but not newborns.

D.if you agree that father's should be prosecuted then that means you also agree that fathers should have a right for the irresponsible or unwilling mothers not to abort their children.

In fact I might even go further than that. A person can be criminally prosecuted for the intentional/reckless transmission of an STD.

This already happens and applies to both men and women.
www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/states/exposure.html

Why not prosecute the man, in the case of unwanted pregnancies, for the intentional/reckless transmission of his baby-potent sperm?

Because sex is consensual unless it's rape, in which case it is criminal and already prosecuted

I'm not completely convinced of that. From what I’ve seen of the things women go through when pregnant, I can’t imagine anyone being that much of a hoe to go through 9 months of that for an unprotected bunk up. They’d be more the morning after pill type, I think - or the ones that keep the babies to live off the State

The reason they may choose to bunk up for 9 months is because over 20 weeks it's illegal to murder a child. In which case they will have to "deal with it" til it comes to term. Then they can dump it in a baby box and walk away.

If it's a crime to dump it in a dumpster anonymously then it should also be a crime to dump it in a baby box anonymously.