Thunderdome
Active Member
For this thread I'd like the discussion to stick between the 2024 election platforms of both candidates. Pros and cons. Things of that nature.
Donald’s plan Vs Kamala's plan
- Thread starter Thunderdome
- Start date
.Princessa
LetYourSmileChangeTheWorldNotTheWorldChangeYourSmi
Trump's plan is the best. 🙂 I voted for him both times.
Economy
Election 2024Harris vs. Trump: Where they stand on the big issues
In some ways the candidates’ plans are similar. Both pledge to keep taxes low for the vast majority of Americans. Both favor efforts to produce more goods at home rather than importing them. And in pursuing their policies, both largely ignore an ever-rising national debt. But they have big differences, too.- Mr. Trump has said he wants to impose a 60% tariff on all Chinese imports and a 10% to 20% tariff on imports from everywhere else to boost U.S. manufacturing jobs. He aims to extend his expiring tax cuts from 2017, and to cut corporate taxes on domestic production. His promise to deport unauthorized immigrants would reduce the overall number of workers and consumers in the economy. Mr. Trump has also said that he thinks the U.S. president should have some say on how the Fed sets interest rates.
- Ms. Harris says that, with the 2017 Trump tax cuts set to expire, she won’t raise taxes on personal incomes below $400,000. But she calls for a tax hike for corporations and high-income Americans. In her plan the top personal income tax rate would rise from 37% to 39.6%; a new tax would hit unrealized capital gains of the ultra-rich. She also seeks to expand the child tax credit, and to create an “America Forward tax credit” to invest in strategic industries. Ms. Harris has promised to respect the Federal Reserve’s independence to set monetary policy.
Thunderdome
Active Member
Thank you for posting this. Maybe we can discuss now the merits and drawbacks of the plans because I am not the only one who knows the plans. Lol.
.Princessa
LetYourSmileChangeTheWorldNotTheWorldChangeYourSmi
Thunderdome
Active Member
What gets me about the Harris plan was the 25k credits for down payments. That would just put more stress on an already short supply of homes. Also that would increase the value of every home owner's home so higher property taxes and even more shortage of housing would lead to higher rent as well.
Her business plan was only to help new businesses. If you've been in business 1 or more years your taxes go up.
Everyone with kids that were not newborns were going to lose 1k per kid.
I just can't see the merit in her plan.
.Princessa
LetYourSmileChangeTheWorldNotTheWorldChangeYourSmi
I agree 💯 percent with you and on another thing it's sad that they would lose 1k.
I looked this up because such a policy would be political suicide and I don’t think any politician would intentionally do that.
The policy proposal I read said that she proposed a larger tax credit (up to $6,000) for families with a newborn during the child’s first year of life. Families with older children would not have lost $1,000 per child because of that proposal. It was only about giving newborns more.
Family with 2 kids born prior to the policy would have had nothing extra but didn’t lose anything. Same family has another child after the policy = 3rd child gets up to 6k tax credit.
Thunderdome
Active Member
The Trump tax bill doubled the child tax credit from 1k to 2k. Harris she said she wouldn't renew the Trump Tax Cuts. So for everyone without a new born they'd go from 2k per kid to 1k.
See the issue?
purplerose
Gold Member
he ran 4 times. care to explain which "both" (2) times you voted for him? even after all this time hes still under water at 50% .
The Voice
Bronze Member
Harris allowed traffickers to shuffle criminals and peddle kids across our border for 4 years and I have no doubt she would have kept doing that to this day, just like European "leaders" are doing right now.
I'm not a big Trump fan (never voted for a GOP President actually) but at least he put a stop to that atrocity.
Tens of thousands of children are still unaccounted for, and will probably never be found.
I'm not a big Trump fan (never voted for a GOP President actually) but at least he put a stop to that atrocity.
Tens of thousands of children are still unaccounted for, and will probably never be found.
BlackLivesMatter
Gold Member
Tagging Trump as a champion of protecting children is a stretch. There is the recording when he said one of the best things about the Miss America pageant was that you could grab the contestants by their Trentons. It could of been a case of Trump's narcissistic b.s. but not all the contestants were the age of majority. Mar A Lago being the center of Epstein's activities and Trump is excused from that?
I am not saying eliminating trafficking of Central American children is not a great thing. However portraying Trump as a champion of children is laughable.
Thunderdome
Active Member
Yeah that too. Plus it's all for cheaper labor. Taking care of the world while some of our own citizens suffer. I'm not against people coming here for a better life. America is one of the greatest countries on Earth, but can we please focus on fixing our own country first? Kinda weird we get villianized for this.
C@T@$TROPHE
Banned
I'm a trump supporter and republican. Trump is a good president, Kamala couldn't fit in his shoes she's so corrupted and has put innocent men away. Democrats are only hypocrites that are corrupt, and sell dreams to people.
I like how he is against abortion and considers it murder cause it is and he's prolife.
I also like when he disses people with facts ,and sings the truth to them and exposes democrats for corruption and how bad they are he tells it how it is. He doesn't sugarcoat a damn thing.
I also like that he gave out 4/5 stimulus checks during COVID, he's the best president america has had he wanted to give 5k but congress rejected it, no president would give that much money to each American not even a democrat.
Like how hes tackled terrorism too. He knows how to run the country properly. Hes the right man for the job. Hate to see him go in 2 years though this man been through a lot as president and avoided getting assassinated twice , and has alot of haters that would love to see him dead because of how real he is and keeps it.
I deadass hope he shuts the government down again 😆 that's another thing I like that he does 😂
I like how he is against abortion and considers it murder cause it is and he's prolife.
I also like when he disses people with facts ,and sings the truth to them and exposes democrats for corruption and how bad they are he tells it how it is. He doesn't sugarcoat a damn thing.
I also like that he gave out 4/5 stimulus checks during COVID, he's the best president america has had he wanted to give 5k but congress rejected it, no president would give that much money to each American not even a democrat.
Like how hes tackled terrorism too. He knows how to run the country properly. Hes the right man for the job. Hate to see him go in 2 years though this man been through a lot as president and avoided getting assassinated twice , and has alot of haters that would love to see him dead because of how real he is and keeps it.
I deadass hope he shuts the government down again 😆 that's another thing I like that he does 😂
Thunderdome
Active Member
Yeah he's done a pretty good job trying to execute his plan and I think the long term effects will be worth it.
Remember though in the campaign he said he was against a national abortion ban. Said it was a state issue and he would veto a national abortion ban. I think he's right about that though. It should be a state issue.
I'm really disappointed about this Iran war and Venezuela. Also that insidious 50 year mortgage idea. He's not been perfect, but no president has helped me more than Trump has directly.
Remember though in the campaign he said he was against a national abortion ban. Said it was a state issue and he would veto a national abortion ban. I think he's right about that though. It should be a state issue.
I'm really disappointed about this Iran war and Venezuela. Also that insidious 50 year mortgage idea. He's not been perfect, but no president has helped me more than Trump has directly.
The Voice
Bronze Member
That's just blatantly false. "Epstein Island" was the center of Epstein activities and anyone who told you otherwise was lying to you. Epstein was booted from Mar-A-Lago as soon as Trump found out what Epstein was up to--literally banned from the premises and not allowed back after trying to recruit one of Trump's female employees.
That ban is thought to be the primary reason why Epstein despised Trump. Disgraced "journalist" Michael Wolff even tried cozying up to the imprisoned Epstein in an effort to use his hatred of Trump to sabotage his Presidential run. All of this has been well-documented for you to see for yourself using the names and keywords I've supplied here.
BlackLivesMatter
Gold Member
If you want to believe that then you are a fool. So I am guessing the jury that found Trump guilty of rape and defamation was just a political attack foster by lets say Hunter Biden. All those redacted pages on the Epstein file has nothing to do with Trump? If you believe that you are pathetic and not to be taken seriously.
The Voice
Bronze Member
So ... nothing to refute what I said? Just deflection?
I rest my case then.
Thunderdome
Active Member
@The Voice
@BlackLivesMatter
Let's keep it about the election and if Trump has succeeded in executing that plan or least tried to execute that plan. Thank you
@BlackLivesMatter
Let's keep it about the election and if Trump has succeeded in executing that plan or least tried to execute that plan. Thank you
BlackLivesMatter
Gold Member
Don't need to refute anything Trump;s moral history is well known. He admitted to grabbing women by their Trenton's because he could. His Mar A Lago spa was used to introduced underage girls to the wonderful world of making money with their bodies. If Trump died today there would be a major celebration of his death. We can no longer afford his vanity projects like the Iran war. and countless botched construction projects. Really Voice no one takes Trump supporters seriously now. You can enjoy things till November then you will be bitching and crying about liberals again because this country is moving left of center and it is because of Trump.
Thunderdome
Active Member
Mind telling us which candidate plan you think was better and why? This isn't a thread for anything else other than that. Both sides could sit here and smear each other all day. Please stick the thread topic. Thank you.
The Voice
Bronze Member
Except this isn't a thread about Trump's history (I believe there is an existing thread about that).
This is a thread about Trump's plans for the nation as compared to Harris's.
I gave one example: Trump secured the borders on day one (which the Democrats insisted could not be done) while Harris treated our borders like a global free-for-all.
Now stop distracting from the topic and come up with something that Harris planned for our nation that would have helped, because so far you're just endlessly whining about Trump while providing nothing that makes us think we'd be better off with Harris.
lostintranslation
Member
Well, I can comment on what Trump has costed you internationally.
Within the space of year, Trump has managed to piss off nearly every ally. You might think that threatening to invade Greenland is just a negotiating tactic, but i can assure you, on this side of the Atlantic, we take that quite seriously. Not to mention the damage threatening to leave NATO and those ridiculous tariff schemes have caused. Trump has really burned all your brigdes and left you an entire continent, that used to be your biggest ally, stunned and seething with anger. You went from being our ally, to being our geopolitical opponent.
As a result, most of Europe is now actively finding ways to decouple from the US. This won't hurt you now, it might even save you a few bucks on the short term... but it will start to sting, when Europe stops investing billions in US made weapons. And that's just the defense industry. All over Europe the tech industry too is flooded with incentives, trying to provide homegrown services to unleash ourselves from Microsoft, ******, Intel et al. If successfull, over time, this too will cost you a lot.
Now, those are all self-inflicted financial wounds. You'll get over them, i'm sure. What's more difficult to regain, is our willingness to support you on the international stage. After 9/11, we committed to fight terrorism with you, sharing intelligence and assisting wherever we could. Europe went to war with you, in Afghanistan we stood shoulder to shoulder.
Today, however, supporting the US under Trump is political suicide and all that influence and goodwill you had built up through the decades is out of the window. You might be of the opinion that you don't need our help and that, in fact, we need you more than you need us. And right now, that might even be true. So, go for it alone, do your thing, but don't be surprised, if after a decade or so of doing that, you'll wake up finding a rearmed autonomous Europe, which no longer serves as an extension of your foreign policy.
Pretty sure, under Harris, Europe would have gladly continued to align itself with US interests. So, was that wall really worth losing your friends?
Thunderdome
Active Member
First off this is about their plans. Trump had the better plan. Secondly the USA was struggling long before Trump and it was because of foreign policy and trade. I don't know if you live in the USA, but mass migration and exporting our jobs overseas only helps the wealthy. Things are cheaper sure, but everyone is making way less money because jobs are not competing for employees anymore so they can let wages stagnate.
Also we don't know how this is all going to turn out long term. Everyone is guessing. Including you. What we do know is that it was no longer working for enough people that we decided trying something else was worth the risk.
I'm glad countries are stepping up and making other plans now. They should have done it long ago.
lostintranslation
Member
I tend to disagree. I'll admit that i don't know much about Harris' foreign policy plans, but i think it is fair to guess, that they didn't include invading the sovereign territory of an allied country.
US unemployment levels are not that atrocious, so there still is a huge labor market, despite immigration and outsourcing jobs. And that's not uncommon for a developed economy, the US went from an manufacturing based economy to a service based economy. The same happened in Europe. You don't necessarily have less jobs, you have other jobs. By the way, if you are worried about jobs, might i suggest that your efforts are perhaps better spent looking into AI than immigration?
Also, foreign trade is a necessity if you want to make anything more complicated than a windmill. Take Apple, an American company... but do you think, your iPhone would be capable of doing what it does, if it were not for a whole collection of different companies spread all over the world? The US is a large country, sure, but you can't possibly hope to do everything you'd expect of a modern society within your own borders. You need foreign trade. We all do.
The money is there, i think. It just doesn't trickle down so much. There are probably ways of solving this, but i doubt i will find them in Trump's plans.
I agree with you there. We live in interesting times, as they say. However, after a few more years of Trump, whatever will come, chances are, that this time you'll be facing it alone.
I too think your system is due a proper work over. But there is a difference between reforming it and burning it to the ground.
Realize what you are wishing for here. You are willingly throwing away a lot of influence. For the last 40 years, the US was taking the lead on anything that had a global relevance and whole continents were willing to follow that lead. That power is rapidly evaporating. Next time, the US wants to point us into the direction it wants, it's going to cost a lot more.
Thunderdome
Active Member
First off tell me what was better about Harris's plan exactly?
During the Biden administration approximately 16 mil jobs were created or came back after covid. Around the same number of immigrants were let in. <<< what we knew before the election.
Here's how it works. The more jobs there are and the smaller the worker pool the more companies compete for workers. Better wages and benefits. You can ask anyone here how badly wages have stagnated here vs growth.
Lastly tell me why tariffs are bad. Run me through your logic. I have my own logic. Let's see who's is better.
lostintranslation
Member
The part where she doesn't threaten to invade Greenland.
16 million new immigrants? That doesn't sound right. According to this article (https://cis.org/Report/ForeignBorn-Number-and-Share-US-Population-AllTime-Highs-January-2025) it is more like 8 million during Biden's term. Still a lot, i'll grant you that.
But, whatever the number, your unemployment rate is 4.2% (https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-unemployment-rate.htm). Meaning, pretty much everyone willing and able to work, can work and the pool of workers companies can pick from is not overly large.
Exactly, the growth is there. The wealth is there. So, if you want to have more of that growth ending up in the pockets of employees, vote for parties that redistribute that wealth. Create conditions and incentives for companies to treat their employees better. Now, Trump would probably call that communism, but it really isn't. It is just good-old capitalism with guardrails. Countries are doing this, with varying levels of success. Take a look around, and pick what you think fits the US best.
And true, if the demand for labour is high and the supply low, wages will increase. But, being a free market, that only works to a point. Imagine a huge shortage on the labor market and companies dramastically increasing their wages to attract people. Great, but if you leave it up to the companies (and with everything else kept equal), they'll probably collectively increase the prices of the products and services they are producing to compensate for those increases... i.e. inflation. And now, you have higher wages, but you can't buy more with it and you are back at square one.
Point being, creating fair conditions for employees and having a lively free market with competitive companies is quite the balancing act. Again, different countries have different solutions for that, and none of them are perfect... but i would wager, some create for more fairer societies than others.
Properly applied tariffs can be a valuable tool. The EU is considering specific tariffs on Chines car brands, because we want to give our own car brands some time to catch up to properly compete with them. If we went completely laissez faire here, we might risk losing brands like Volkswagen and BMW. And even with our entire car industry in the balance, it is still kind of a tricky decision, as China might retaliate... so we'd really have to run through different scenarios to figure out what the fall out might be.
However, Trump seems to be dashing out tariffs based on... what? Your trade balance with them? That makes little sense to me. There are many hidden complexities here. E.g., you can put a general tariff on everything the EU exports, thinking that might help your own industries, but what if those industries actually need components for their products that are made by EU countries? You think everything in a Ford is made in the US?
So, sure, you can curtail immigration as much as you want. You can close your markets to foreign companies. But, it won't necessarily get you a better economy or raise your standard of living.
Thunderdome
Active Member
Can you please also count up asylum seekers and refugees? Remember i said immigrants. Also knowing exactly how many illegal immigrants there are is impossible. The left says slightly less than 10 million. The right says slightly over 20 million. The number is probably somewhere in the middle.
Unemployment rates are based on people who are looking for work. Not people who aren't employed. Everyone knows this.
Harris meant more globalism. We're over that. Her plan was also going to raise taxes and rent on everyone. That's the main reason she lost actually. It wasn't really immigration or globalism anyway.
So tariffs... raise the cost of any goods foreign or domestic made with foreign components. Sounds bad, but let's be forward thinking. If those foreign goods and components become worth making in America they will be made here. Not abroad. More jobs in America means higher wages. On top of that Trump cut taxes for businesses physically based and doing production in America.
Lastly nobody is saying close off from the world including Trump. We can trade. We can help allies when we are able. Just not at the expense of our own people.
Also Trump is not perfect. The military crap he's been doing. Proposing 50 year home loans. Really grinds my gears, but we'll never have a perfect president. The fact remains his plan was better. That's why he won.
Thunderdome
Active Member
The above figures represent net growth. New arrivals are offset by outmigration and deaths in the existing immigrant population. Our best estimate is that 11.5 to 12.5 million legal and illegal immigrants settled in the country in the last four years.
Literally from the site you linked. Maybe you should have kept reading. Lol.
So... around 15 million if you include legal refugees and asylum seekers. 😉
lostintranslation
Member
Your argument was that employers have too large a pool of potential employees to choose from, pressing wages down. So, you would want to look at the number of people who are looking for work, as they are competing in this pool.
Honestly, i do not know and can not understand why she lost. If i were American, i would definitely not have voted for the candidate who incited a violent riot, who tried to overthrow a legitimate election result, who seems to be actively dismantling democracy, who is destroying alliances left and right and who seems to lack the emotional maturity that would suit being the leader of the free world. I would have gladly paid more taxes, to avoid that guy. Especially, if those taxes would have been spent wisely.
And who will be making them? You only have 4% unemployment, you want to kick out immigrants and close the border.
Well, Trump is working very hard to make trade as difficult as possible. How can companies plan to trade with the US, if Trump may wake up on a random Tuesday morning and decide to increase tariffs. Stability and predictability are kind of important to companies.
I'm happy that you can justify to yourself voting for him. In the end, you Americans get to make the call. I'm just here giving you an outsider perspecitve.
lostintranslation
Member
That's their estimate, not what they have figures for and still significantly less than 16 million.
Legal refugees seem to be included. From the text you quoted: "Our best estimate is that 11.5 to 12.5 million legal and illegal immigrants settled in the country in the last four years.".
Thunderdome
Active Member
Refugees and asylum seekers has a different status because until they get status as a citizen or go home they are not counted as immigrants. They also admitted they don't know the exact numbers so it definitely higher. Which means my number is close. This number also doesn't include seasonal workers.
So maybe job numbers went up bit, but then people start graduating school. More workers into the workforce. Also we're not taking into account the actual jobs being created. That matters too
Thunderdome
Active Member
The numbers justify my vote. Feelings are checked at the door. Lol.
Secondly of course you hate Trump's trade policy. If we're gonna help America we can't help whatever country your from as much. Sorry. Maybe your politicians can fix your predicament instead of my politicians fixing it for them.
lostintranslation
Member
Okay, fair enough. But, it is bit of an overreach to just include them then, right? I mean, you don't know if they'll stay or leave in the end.
There are win-win relationships. We're still both countries that value individual freedoms, value human rights. Aside from the economic benefits for us both, in a world, where autocratic regimes are on the rise, it'll help to stand together. However, for whatever reason, your current president seems to be more at home with those leaders, who do not put such a high price on all those freedoms.
And if you think i'm just arguing for my own country, you'd be wrong. I deeply value the US and will be forever grateful for the role it played in liberating my country in WWII. Which is exactly why it hurts me to see it move along a trajectory which, i think, only will bring more suffering. Not just to us, but also to yourselves. Believe me when i say, that i want the best for your country.
The Voice
Bronze Member
But ... That's not the topic now, is it?
So I will copypasta what I said to the last "BUT TRUMP!!" guy:
"Now stop distracting from the topic and come up with something that Harris planned for our nation that would have helped, because so far you're just endlessly whining about Trump while providing nothing that makes us think we'd be better off with Harris."
The Voice
Bronze Member
But ... That's not the topic now, is it?
So I will copypasta what I said to the last "BUT TRUMP!!" guy:
"Now stop distracting from the topic and come up with something that Harris planned for our nation that would have helped, because so far you're just endlessly whining about Trump while providing nothing that makes us think we'd be better off with Harris."
The fact that none of the Harris supporters can come up with a single plan of Hariss's that would've helped this nation speaks volumes.
"Pretty sure, under Harris, Europe would have gladly continued to align itself with US interests. So, was that wall really worth losing your friends?"
Losing European "friends" who no longer value free speech, democracy, or their own culture doesn't move me. Like the Democrats, their leaders have already decided that foreigners who are obviously incompatible with Western society are more valuable to them than their own people who are begging them to put a stop to the migrant onslaught.
I remember a Sweden that wasn't notorious for bombings in their cities.
I remember a Germany where women and girls could gather for New Years Eve festivities and not be assaulted.
I remember a UK that didn't turn a blind eye to "Grooming Gangs" pimping their children.
I remember a Spain that protected Ceuta and Mililla.
I even remember Europeans having a voice in their own countries without an EU overseer dictating who is permitted to run for office and who isn't.
Finally, I remember voting for Barack "Deporter-In-Chief" Obama, twice, back when Democrats (and European leaders) valued their people, their culture, and their borders. But the way things are going, pretty soon we (the United States of America) are going to have to send in elite special forces to steal nuclear material from a handful of European "allies" before the Muslims take over and decide to wage a Holy War against us using Europe's own nukes.
lostintranslation
Member
Nor are Europe's immigration issues, but here we are.
Personally, i am not really into ranking how valuable people are for society. That sounds like a really dangerous road to take. But the thing is, i live in a free society, where everyone can practice their own religion, as long as they stay within the law. That includes Muslims, just as much as it does Christians.
First of all, good on you for remembering all that.
Secondly, do you honestly think anyone here wanted criminals or terrorists within our borders? If we had a way of filtering them at the border, of course, we would. But we don't, so we can't. Unless, of course, we turn everyone away... including the ones who were fleeing from regimes who'd violate every human right in the book. I'm sure you'll remember ISIS too, in my view an extremely barbaric regime, whose atrocities even made the Taliban blush. I don't know about you, but i'd have found it difficult to turn a family away, who were fleeing from them.
But, you do have a point that those who come here, should understand what it means to live in a society that entertains different religions, different opinions, different lifestyles and the freedom to choose your own destiny. I don't know what the best approach is. Useful integration classes? Come to think of it, that is something i admire about the US... in general, you seem to be able to create a broader sense of a shared identity among a very diverse group of people.
I'm hoping, that was just hyperbole. In my opinion, a more realistic scenario is Europe turning so far right (partly because of unresolved migration issues) that we'd be dusting off the brown uniforms again. In which case, you might indeed want to get our nukes.
Thunderdome
Active Member
@The Voice @lostintranslation
Trump ran on limiting mass migration so that's okay to talk about, but either people agreed with him or at ths least it didn't matter to us.
Also Voice has a point about crime. The economy has a direct effect on crime rates. The worse the economic opportunity the more crime there is. That's just fact.
Once again Trump's plan is better in this regard. Even if you let in 20 million law abiding immigrants who were also properly vetted in 4 years, but only created 16 million jobs you're asking for a higher crime rate. Desperate people do desperate things. Financially stressed or job insecure people have a higher rate of using drugs and alcohol to cope. We know where those can lead.
Trump ran on limiting mass migration so that's okay to talk about, but either people agreed with him or at ths least it didn't matter to us.
Also Voice has a point about crime. The economy has a direct effect on crime rates. The worse the economic opportunity the more crime there is. That's just fact.
Once again Trump's plan is better in this regard. Even if you let in 20 million law abiding immigrants who were also properly vetted in 4 years, but only created 16 million jobs you're asking for a higher crime rate. Desperate people do desperate things. Financially stressed or job insecure people have a higher rate of using drugs and alcohol to cope. We know where those can lead.
lostintranslation
Member
I suppose, there are two broad categories as to why people pack up and move:
1) Fleeing from violence (war, political oppression) or other life threathening situations (extreme hunger, natural catastrophes). I'd say, any wealthy, developed country should try to shelter these people, it would be inhumane not to.
2) Looking to build up a better life, because we offer them better chances. Now, these people only tend to leave their family and friends, if they are pretty sure, they are going to do much better here. Which is sort of a good signal about your economy, isn't it? At least, they seem to think you have jobs for them, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered in the first place. I suppose, they might also be the first to return, if they were too overly optimistic about their chances.
This is aside from the notion, that you might need them to stay economically healthy. Like most developed nations, you are heading to an inverted age pyramid. Meaning, you risk having too few working-aged people paying taxes to pay for the health and pension costs of the senior generation that isn't participating anymore. Having young and able-bodied people coming from other countries, could help with that. Might be that pretty soon, we'd be asking them to come over.
By the way, this category also includes those people who really made it, creating companies that add tremendous value. Elon Musk (founder Tesla, SpaceX, from South Africa), Jensen Huang (founder NVIDIA, from Taiwan), Sergey Brin (founder G*ogle, from the Soviet Union). Then you have people like Sundar Pichai (current CEO G*ogle, from India), Satya Nadella (current CEO Microsoft, from India), Lisa Su (CEO AMD, from Taiwan) and Lip-Bu Tan (CEO Intel, from Malaysia) . So, for one thing, I don't think, you would have the wealth generating tech sector that you do, without immigrants.
Now, this isn't to say, that one shouldn't have borders at all... but immigration is a complicated issue and the notion that they are just stealing your jobs is not doing justice to it. Nor is all the fearmongering around it, that populist parties like to indulge in.
lostintranslation
Member
By the way, on the topic of demographics, i found this to be an interesting article:
Quoting from it:
"It is also increasingly difficult to sustain pay-as-you-go pension systems in these rapidly aging countries, which in only a few decades have gone from having 10 working people per retiree to just 3 or 4. More immigration, especially in rapidly aging countries, would help slow the growth of the age dependency ratio. While immigrants will eventually age, a significant inflow of young working-age people during the years of greatest native decline will allow a gradual and more manageable transition.
The fact that people migrate when they are young is also the reason that several studies find that immigrants have a positive fiscal contribution over their lifetimes (Orrenius 2017). Clearly, a positive net fiscal effect depends on the ability of immigrants to integrate into the labor market and offer sought-after skills. The potential, however, for immigrants to improve the fiscal balance of a receiving country is real. In the United States, for instance, where immigrants’ employment rates are high and a large share are highly educated, the average lifetime fiscal contribution of an immigrant who arrived in the last 10 years has been calculated at $173,000."
Quoting from it:
"It is also increasingly difficult to sustain pay-as-you-go pension systems in these rapidly aging countries, which in only a few decades have gone from having 10 working people per retiree to just 3 or 4. More immigration, especially in rapidly aging countries, would help slow the growth of the age dependency ratio. While immigrants will eventually age, a significant inflow of young working-age people during the years of greatest native decline will allow a gradual and more manageable transition.
The fact that people migrate when they are young is also the reason that several studies find that immigrants have a positive fiscal contribution over their lifetimes (Orrenius 2017). Clearly, a positive net fiscal effect depends on the ability of immigrants to integrate into the labor market and offer sought-after skills. The potential, however, for immigrants to improve the fiscal balance of a receiving country is real. In the United States, for instance, where immigrants’ employment rates are high and a large share are highly educated, the average lifetime fiscal contribution of an immigrant who arrived in the last 10 years has been calculated at $173,000."
Thunderdome
Active Member
I've already stated I'm not against immigration. I wouldn't be against mass migration either if it wasn't just about the rich staying rich or getting more rich. I already know about the boomers aging out. You know what happens if we don't replace them with mass migration? Wages go up. Which means we pay more in taxes to social security. Lol.
Here's a real fact. Maybe you'll address it. Unemployment among people in the US with a computer science degree is around 7% or so. Pretty high. That's not including people who have a computer science degree that found other work. Our H1B visa system is used mainly by tech companies. They hire mainly Indians for 50k less a year than Americans. So once again my point is proven about wages.
Intel, AMD, Apple, IBM, and Microsoft all founded in America by Americans, but outsourced for cheaper labor in other countries. Jensen Huang, Chris Malachowsky, and Curtis Priem founded NVIDIA actually. The latter 2 have degrees in computer science. Jensen is just a business guy. So... all these foreign born people running American made companies that got shipped overseas for cheaper labor is a good thing for America? Hmmm. Please explain.
****** wasn't just started by Brin(who got his education in computer science here), but also by Larry Page. Musk got his education here as well. He started building his fortune with Zip2 with his brother after his father loaned him the money in 1995.
Where where would the tech sector be without Americans is the better question.
Thunderdome
Active Member
I tried to click your link, but it said access denied.
Actually what you are talking about has already been discussed. You're bringing up immigration stats to support mass migration. The two are different. Let me explain.
Many people who immigrate here the normal way usually already speak English and are somewhat successful and yes their kids grow up here. They actually pay money to become a citizen. Most of the immigrants you mentioned in that previous post were raised and educated in America.
Mass migrants are coming here with nothing and can't speak English most of the time. We already found over 1 million illegal immigrants with social security numbers sold by people in the social security department to coyotes and such. A woman who was hired by the Biden administration had the sole purpose of getting immigrants benefits. She'd ask them if they had neck pain or back pain. If they said yes they were automatically given Social Security money for their "disability". It's not their fault. They're coming to a place with almost no education and/or can't speak our language. How successful can they be?
A woman from Columbia was almost crushed by a machine right in front of me because she couldn't speak English. I was training someone how to operate it. Told everyone else to stand back because this 150 pound guide was gonna swing down. I turn around to instruct my trainee to hit the auto button after turning off the safety. Turn back around as he starts. See her standing literally where i told everyone not to stand. Immediately grabbed her arm and pulled her out of the way as the guide swung down.
The people pushing mass migration are either unaware or don't care about the fact some jobs require a level of communication to be safely done as well.
Also many immigrants send money to their home countries to support their family there. It doesn't get spent here. Which hurts the economy too.
Here's another thing. Not all people come with cultures that will succeed in America. I have a story about this too. These families from the Middle East moved to my town in Michigan. Bought 2 gas stations, a restaurant, and a liquor shop. The restaurant and one gas station went under less than 2 years later because of how they treated women customers. People stopped going to them. The owners said our town was racist. The liquor shop and other gas station however are doing fine. They treat everyone with respect. Men and women.
I'm bringing this up because most immigrants who choose to move here are aware of our culture and want to be part of it. The people displaced by war or political reasons are being forced to come here and they don't like our culture always. They're here because they have to be here. See the difference?
lostintranslation
Member
How much does your wage need to go up, before the taxes of it supports a few pensioners and their ballooning health care costs? Do you think, that would survive an election cycle? Whatever you do for a living becomes so expensive, demand for it will drop, putting your job at risk.
There are a few reasons for that. One was the hiring craze during the covid lockdowns, due to low interest rates. A few years ago, when their wild growth predicitions didn't come through and rates moved back to normal levels, these people were being offboarded en masse and i guess, the job market hasn't recovered since then. Second huge factor: AI. Turns out, the current generation of LLMs are really good at code generation. So you see, this hasn't to do with "cheap" immigration labor, as it does with automation. By the way, AI will eventually come for all our jobs and it's really time to start thinking about how to deal with that.
The point was that your country attracted many people with a lot of talent, who went on to help your tech sector grow to the globally dominating force it is today. Could that have been done without them? Perhaps, but i'd dare wager that it would have taken longer and at the expensive of other industries.
And yes, outsourcing happens, of course. Raising salaries in those countries, to the point that outsourcing becomes less prevalent. I personally have seen how outsourcing to eastern Europe was profitable, until suddenly it wasn't anymore, because their salaries reached nearly western levels too.
In Europe, probably. Both Germany and the UK were pioneers in this field as well. My first home computer was British, the ZX Spectrum (oh, did i love that little machine!). And, as a side note, the first draft of the http-protocol, with which you are viewing this website, came out of CERN.
Thunderdome
Active Member
730k H1B visa holders in America. 70% of those are Indians that make up the backbone of our tech industry. Meanwhile unemployment rates with those Americans with computer science degrees is 7%. It's atrocious. H1B visas were intended for skilled labor we don't have. Not so tech giants could get cheaper labor. Covid and AI aside there's no reason to hire cheaper Indian coders.
While outsourcing jobs you fail to mention the country losing those jobs lose wages. Well America is over that.
We're both arguing what is best for our countries. Were not gonna agree on this point. You have yet to post 1 true number or anything with full context to support your position that mass immigration, outsourcing our jobs, or policing the entire planet benefits my country.