There is no LGB without the T

[Finn2.0]

I Just mean for the last 100 years, women have been struggling for equality.
It seems to me, it erodes the whole idea of equality and respect, when guys who 'psychologically' 'think' they are women, can tell women how they think and feel.

And I think this part is a valid debate to have. However, I'd say you were doing exactly what you hate here by telling women how they should think and feel about males transitioning. Have women expressed their concerns to you that they're losing their voices? Don't get me wrong, you are entitled to an opinion and you're entitled to share it. But I'd make sure that A) your opinion was shared by those you're speaking for, and B) you don't become the very thing you hate in the process of getting your point across.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

i didnt mean to say that, i didnt mean to suggest that at all.
No of course not - trans arent rapists or offenders ... no more than the general populace ...
90percent of those crimes are committed by males though.

I Just mean for the last 100 years, women have been struggling for equality.
It seems to me, it erodes the whole idea of equality and respect, when guys who 'psychologically' 'think' they are women, can tell women how they think and feel.

Finn2.0 said:


Is it logical to pick out one possible example and use that as the basis of an entire argument? An argument, I might add, that is all over the place. What is the issue you have? Is it the small minority of men who have potentially abused the transition process for their own nefarious purposes? Is it that you don't agree with the policing of language, especially concerning pronouns? Is it what you perceive as men taking over women's spaces?

I think the arguments you're trying to make come from a good place, I don't see anything malicious. But I'd urge you to actually think about the points you're trying to make before presenting them. There are a number of trans people within this chat community, and I'd hate for them to have to see you, however accidentally, comparing them to rapists and sex offenders.


...
maybe my view opinion is all over the place.
i'll try and think about what i say in future.

 

[Louize]

i dont like it when MEN MALES, tell WOMEN, FEMALES, how they think and who they are.
I think that is wrong.

I've never had a trans person tell me how to think. They can request I call them by their preferred pronoun, and as a decent human being, I will do this. I don't understand how you think the trans community is trying to control women? How they are going to take away my rights or my struggles. How they have an impact on anything surrounding biological women? Especially when as mentioned, a great portion of the trans community are in fact females transitioning to being male.

It comes down to this... I am a biological female who has had nothing but amazing interactions with the trans community. There is indeed a small minority of people who are outwardly used for fear mongering, whilst the vast majority are just people who want to live their lives in a way that harms no other person.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

And I think this part is a valid debate to have. However, I'd say you were doing exactly what you hate here by telling women how they should think and feel about males transitioning. Have women expressed their concerns to you that they're losing their voices? Don't get me wrong, you are entitled to an opinion and you're entitled to share it. But I'd make sure that A) your opinion was shared by those you're speaking for, and B) you don't become the very thing you hate in the process of getting your point across.

'Have women expressed their concerns to you that they're losing their voices' - a little bit yes.
And also i read the news, and i have a lot of empathy for scottish women, who feel their voices are being ignored.
it's all kind of complicated isnt it

 

[RandomGuyUK]

I've never had a trans person tell me how to think. They can request I call them by their preferred pronoun, and as a decent human being, I will do this. I don't understand how you think the trans community is trying to control women? How they are going to take away my rights or my struggles. How they have an impact on anything surrounding biological women? Especially when as mentioned, a great portion of the trans community are in fact females transitioning to being male.

It comes down to this... I am a biological female who has had nothing but amazing interactions with the trans community. There is indeed a small minority of people who are outwardly used for fear mongering, whilst the vast majority are just people who want to live their lives in a way that harms no other person.

my point is biological males who say 'i feel like a woman inside'.
that is saying they know what it is like to feel like a woman.
they have no idea.

I am a man. I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman.
That is my point.

 

[Finn2.0]

it's all kind of complicated isnt it

That's what it all comes down to. It's very nuanced and people like you and I don't know what it's like for trans people. But this is a chance to become more informed. I've met quite a few trans people on this very site. Both male to female, and female to male, and they are the reason I have a better understanding of their lives and struggles. Each and every one were very happen to answer any queries I had and I used it as an opportunity to expand my knowledge. It's easy to dismiss something, it's a lot harder to accept something you don't understand. But there's never a bad time to better yourself.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

I've never had a trans person tell me how to think. They can request I call them by their preferred pronoun, and as a decent human being, I will do this. I don't understand how you think the trans community is trying to control women? How they are going to take away my rights or my struggles. How they have an impact on anything surrounding biological women? Especially when as mentioned, a great portion of the trans community are in fact females transitioning to being male.

It comes down to this... I am a biological female who has had nothing but amazing interactions with the trans community. There is indeed a small minority of people who are outwardly used for fear mongering, whilst the vast majority are just people who want to live their lives in a way that harms no other person.

"a great portion of the trans community are in fact females transitioning to being male." - a smaller proportion ... but yes, some are FTM true

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

i dont like it when MEN MALES, tell WOMEN, FEMALES, how they think and who they are.
I think that is wrong.

Men males and women females? That’s an odd way of wording things. If someone identifies as a man, woman or non-binary, that’s there business, irrespective of biological sex. Men males and women female presupposes that gender is tied to sex, which isn’t the case. One can be assigned female at birth but identify as non-binary, male or agender.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what gender someone is, what ethnicity they are, in the sense that we should accept diversity. It is the only way forward. What defines someone, is their character and for the survival of our species, kindness, compassion, empathy in general.

There are conservative bigoted types out there who constantly bring forward how Western Democracy or the Western World in general, is somehow superior to other forms of government because of the Wests’ supposed inclusivity, diversity and constitutionalism vis-à-vis Non-Western cultures. These people who claim the Western World is superior because of our supposed inclusivity and tolerance, are also the same people who are in fact against inclusivity, the multicultural society and diversity in general. Hypocritical bastards like UKIP and Nigel Farage, the PVV and Geert Wilders, Donald Trump and all the other populist scumbags out there.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

That's what it all comes down to. It's very nuanced and people like you and I don't know what it's like for trans people. But this is a chance to become more informed. I've met quite a few trans people on this very site. Both male to female, and female to male, and they are the reason I have a better understanding of their lives and struggles. Each and every one were very happen to answer any queries I had and I used it as an opportunity to expand my knowledge. It's easy to dismiss something, it's a lot harder to accept something you don't understand. But there's never a bad time to better yourself.

true. i'm not arguing with that.
You're right. you are all right, true.

my opinions are also valid - but I should be more kind. yes.

 

[Louize]

No. I don't think that's what they're saying, lol.

I think every trans person recognises that biology is a thing, however, they can very much recognise that they don't conform to societies standards of masculine or feminine, that they can recognise that they have been born in to a body that doesn't feel right to them. That (and I've personally seen this kill people) they have a body that completely ruins their mental health because they don't see what they think they should see in the mirror. That they can dress more feminine or masculine but that it still doesn't change that they feel like they should have different bodily parts to the ones they have.

Believe me, they know it doesn't change their biological gender, but they can transition and match their outside presentation to how they NEED to identify in order to feel more comfortable in themselves.

The same way a woman can choose to have breast implants or a breast reduction when she looks in the mirror and doesn't like that... The same way anyone can have a nose job when they hate their nose... These two things can cause people to be so deeply unhappy and depressed, but we don't demonise that.

We don't demonise biological females who change their whole bodies to be happy (sometimes not even to be happy, but just to look better) but we demonise someone who is so deeply unhappy and mentally feels they're in the wrong gender of body for doing the same. The difference is, people who transition put their body though the most dedicated circumstances, years of therapy, ongoing and lifelong hormones, knowing they will still face abuse and stigmas just because they want to be happy 🤷🏼‍♀️

Have you ever actually stepped back to consider these things?

 

[RandomGuyUK]

Men males and women females? That’s an odd way of wording things. If someone identifies as a man, woman or non-binary, that’s there business, irrespective of biological sex. Men males and women female presupposes that gender is tied to sex, which isn’t the case. One can be assigned female at birth but identify as non-binary, male or agender.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what gender someone is, what ethnicity they are, in the sense that we should accept diversity. It is the only way forward. What defines someone, is their character and for the survival of our species, kindness, compassion, empathy in general.

There are conservative bigoted types out there who constantly bring forward how Western Democracy or the Western World in general, is somehow superior to other forms of government because of the Wests’ supposed inclusivity, diversity and constitutionalism vis-à-vis Non-Western cultures. These people who claim the Western World is superior because of our supposed inclusivity and tolerance, are also the same people who are in fact against inclusivity, the multicultural society and diversity in general. Hypocritical bastards like UKIP and Nigel Farage, the PVV and Geert Wilders, Donald Trump and all the other populist scumbags out there.

i just figure we are all humans.

and biological sex - male, and females - is a fundamental truth.

'populism' - that just means what is popular, what most ordinary people think.

The Western world, and England in particular, created the modern world.
we gave you the political and philosophical ability to ask questions about gender etc

 

[emileh]

i just figure we are all humans.

and biological sex - male, and females - is a fundamental truth.

'populism' - that just means what is popular, what most ordinary people think.

The Western world, and England in particular, created the modern world.
we gave you the political and philosophical ability to ask questions about gender etc

Nope. Not even close. There are genetic combinations that produce intersex people and that's not even a single category in and of itself.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

No. I don't think that's what they're saying, lol.

I think every trans person recognises that biology is a thing, however, they can very much recognise that they don't conform to societies standards of masculine or feminine, that they can recognise that they have been born in to a body that doesn't feel right to them. That (and I've personally seen this kill people) they have a body that completely ruins their mental health because they don't see what they think they should see in the mirror. That they can dress more feminine or masculine but that it still doesn't change that they feel like they should have different bodily parts to the ones they have.

Believe me, they know it doesn't change their biological gender, but they can transition and match their outside presentation to how they NEED to identify in order to feel more comfortable in themselves.

The same way a woman can choose to have breast implants or a breast reduction when she looks in the mirror and doesn't like that... The same way anyone can have a nose job when they hate their nose... These two things can cause people to be so deeply unhappy and depressed, but we don't demonise that.

We don't demonise biological females who change their whole bodies to be happy (sometimes not even to be happy, but just to look better) but we demonise someone who is so deeply unhappy and mentally feels they're in the wrong gender of body for doing the same. The difference is, people who transition put their body though the most dedicated circumstances, years of therapy, ongoing and lifelong hormones, knowing they will still face abuse and stigmas just because they want to be happy 🤷🏼‍♀️

Have you ever actually stepped back to consider these things?

I understand what you're saying

 

[RandomGuyUK]

Nope. Not even close. There are genetic combinations that produce intersex people and that's not even a single category in and of itself.

The Scottish Enlightenment eg Locke and Hume gave us the modern world too, emilehs x

 

[emileh]

The Scottish Enlightenment eg Locke and Hume gave us the modern world too, emilehs x

It's not philosophy though, it's science.

 

[Louize]

Nope. Not even close. There are genetic combinations that produce intersex people and that's not even a single category in and of itself.

He's seen that in this thread already, but he's completely glossed over that.

Also he's just suggested England built the world and gender roles... Like the Romans weren't gender bending before England was even truly thought of 🤦🏼‍♀️Cybele was a goddess that was followed for those Romans who didn't identify as either gender. Or gods like Attis who was never truly depicted as either gender.

 

[RandomGuyUK]

He's seen that in this thread already, but he's completely glossed over that.

Also he's just suggested England built the world and gender roles... Like the Romans weren't gender bending before England was even truly thought of 🤦🏼‍♀️Cybele was a goddess that was followed for those Romans who didn't identify as either gender. Or gods like Attis who was never truly depicted as either gender.

I read everything you all said.
I'm not sure i totally agree, but i've listened to everything.
like you said - "Have you ever actually stepped back to consider these things?"
I'm considering.
I do listen. always.

 

[Akrta]

Hr is that you?

 

[DontCostYaNuffin]

Hr is that you?

It’s probably him. Your former “boss” has returned.

 

[BabaYaga]

I support the LGBP (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Pansexual) as those have to do with sexual orientation.

As for everything else (TQIA2+) they should have their own union and movement. As gender has nothing to do with sexual orientation and I find it distasteful we are roping it all in together ... It's not the same.

For examples::
Someone can be Trans and be straight
Someone can be gender-fluid or queer and be straight
Someone can be 2 spirited and be Straight
And so forth... Making it have NOTHING to do with people who faught so hard for "Gay and Lesbian rights"

The difference between "I identify" and "I am" matters.